International balance of trade

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Paul
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Re: International balance of trade

Post by Paul » 02 Nov 2011, 14:13

Blondie wrote:
Paul wrote:To use gold as a reference point for trade suggests the value of the gold is equal in time and in place.
No, it doesn't. It suggests that gold itself is equal in time and space.
Paul wrote:value is relative and in the eye of the beholder.
Of course it is.
Paul wrote:you just can't fix value to something tangible.
Of course one cannot, which is why Freegold is not fixed.
The whole point is that it is free to be valued in the eye of the beholder over and over again at every point in time and space.

Small but crucial things make all the difference to the view.
Paul wrote:trade will find and use the most competitve currency as a reference point. ...
a bit of gold MTM on cb balance just makes for good windowdressing to gain confidence in this currency.
These opinions are based upon your perspective, not mine.
No point in discussing these, only worthwhile discussing the fundamental differences in the perspectives from which opinions are born.
Our fundamental difference appears that you feel Freegold somehow fixes value to gold. To me it means the exact opposite. The value of gold is free to float, just as all others are.
This is the flaw in the past and current systems... all things are valued dynamically, freely changing in the eye of the beholder, all except gold. This is what the market will correct, and then we have Freegold. The market will overwhelm the control of gold's value, and allow it to be found in the eye of the beholder like all others.

You seem to have overlooked the "free" in "Freegold".
Your argument is perfectly valid with all other forms of "gold standard" which always do attempt to peg value and gold. This is not what the market wants, nor is it what works, which is why these systems always end in a devaluation of currency against gold.

Freegold is a dynamic, market-set, permanent state of gold revaluation. The exact opposite of fixing the value of gold.
I am not stating the value OF gold should be fixed at all, it should float like everything else,
but it is freegold stating value should be fixed TO gold(as a proxy) where my problem is. small detail but huge difference ...

It may look like relativity but it is not. It'll only learn you the relative value of everything to gold in that currency. to be able to compare with other currency we have to use the relative value of the gold. this comparing of goldvalue suggests the values are compatible. this is where this goes wrong. the goldvalue is NOT compatible, only the gold is.

It is a difference in the trade perspective imo.
I've had the same kind of trail you and indy did. I've started with Armstrong, but I could've started anywhere. I've left Armstrong perspective for a while because of FO/FO/A, have thought and played with freegold perspective, but thinking about international trade implications made me come back to Armstrong.
He was still bugging me, I just didn't grasp his perspective before. It was my bias that was making me blind. to much focus on producing and consuming. I did not get the nature of trade. Trade is the physical equivalent of the monetary value exchange system. Without trade we don't need the money.
Trade is about the differences in value that makes value flow. To be able to do this efficiently we need to be able to compare the values. we can not do this with gold. the value is not the same, only the gold is.
This is why trade will use the best currency available. it might be unstable, but the value is at least comparable and it is much more efficient.

small details, totally different outcome ...
Last edited by Paul on 02 Nov 2011, 14:39, edited 2 times in total.
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Indiana Jones
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What is Freegold Reality and what is Thinking out of the Box

Post by Indiana Jones » 02 Nov 2011, 14:18

Let’s throw a different angle on this. It seems off topic but in my opinion is really isn’t.

'Another' writes about looking at the system from a different perspective. I call that different perspective, a different Internal Strategy, why ?
Let me explain.

Nobody has a real clue about Reality. We think we do, but everybody is looking at Reality applying his own Internal Map of Reality. It seems to be a complex theory but once understood, it really isn’t. This is a psychologically proven theory that helped many people overcome different psychological disorders.

We all create Maps of Reality as we grow up. These templates allow us to instantly process and categorize a steady stream of information that would be overwhelming if we didn’t have some way of understanding it quickly. Without our Inner Maps, we have to figure out how to open a door each time we came to one, or how to value a dollar bill and dollar digit every time we are encountered with some and even how to value the money system we are living in. These are simple but true examples.
Your Internal Map of Reality also contains and organizes countless Beliefs like believe in a Monetary System or believe in Gold or believe in a Prophet or Religion. These also are simple examples.
Your Internal Map of Reality also organizes countless Values, Generalizations, Decisions and other Concepts that pertain to how you see yourself in Relation to the Rest of the World. Your Internal Map of Reality is a Blueprint, your mind uses to create your life. Just because your Inner Map is incredibly useful to you, however, doesn’t mean that it’s the best one you could have, or that you’re fated to live the rest of your live with the one you have now.

Many Inner Maps are built around Pain and Insecurity and Desperate Attempts to remain Safe by Avoiding Change, Following the Rules, and other non-resourceful strategies. This is all induced by the oldest but very powerful part of our brain, the Amigdala.

Our built in Filters, Delete, Distort and Generalize Reality. Those impulses are processed through Complex Thinking Strategies, creating our Internal Representation of Reality.
All together seemingly complex, but a very useful system which is sometimes Hard to Redraw. Especially, when many people somehow share the same Internal Map of Reality as is the case with our Current Monetary System.

If you really want change (which is Not the way Obama looks at change) you have to alter your Internal Strategies because it is Impossible to Alter Reality. People or groups of people who want to change something without changing these shared Internal Maps of Reality are Running Around in Circles because they just can’t change Reality.

If reality becomes too complex to handle, it is generally useful to redraw parts of your Internal Map (called ‘thinking out of the box’). But these changes in your Internal Strategies of Thinking carry a great Risk. The Risk that you adept New Strategies that are leading you Further Away from Reality.

Now here’s my problem which by the way I see as a challenge ! Am I running around in circles because my Internal Map is Stuck Up, or is my gut feeling telling me the truth that Freegold is Too Far Away from Reality. That’s why I’m asking questions about freegold and that’s why I want to think things over before I answer to freegold replies. There’s nothing more to it.

Grtz. Indy [THOUGHTS 1]...... :)

Last edited by Indiana Jones on 02 Nov 2011, 20:43, edited 1 time in total.
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What system will succeed the $IMFS

Post by Indiana Jones » 02 Nov 2011, 20:16

So what does this all mean to brilliant ideas and brilliant concepts ?

By way of example: Let’s take Einstein/s theory of relativity. It was invented long before Einstein by a Frenchman and some other guy.
During his quest for an alternative to Newton/s theory, this already existing relativity theory drew Einstein/s attention. He altered some details, which resulted in E=MC square. When he presented the E=MC square to the academic society nobody really paid attention.
Einstein not only being an intelligent physicist but also being an excellent marketer, managed to spread his idea all over the place. He managed to get through the sticky academic mob and by mere luck got in touch with some important professors of physics. Those professors came to the conclusion that maybe this could be a mindboggling theory. I guess you are familiar with the rest of the story. However, does that make Einstein brilliant, I guess not because those other two guys are really brilliant.


So what all this has to do with freegold ?

-Is the freegold theory a brilliant theory ? I think Yes
-Is Another a brilliant person ? I think Yes
-Where does that leave fofoa ? I think he is very clever but not brilliant
-What are the chances of freegold being the successor of the $IMFS compared to other possible solutions like Armstrong proposes ? Now we are talking!

What system will succeed the $IMFS, depends on a couple of events.
Until now freegold seems to be only known and accepted by a few persons and I really don’t know how important those persons are in the current monetary system. Are those persons respected in the Monetary World and are they, like Einstein, excellent marketers ?
Freegold needs a Change of Believe in the monetary system, and this requires a whole lot of work to do in the Internal Maps of Realty of the ones in charge of the monetary systems.
The Map of Reality concept - mentioned in the above post - maybe is not so hard to understand, but making changes in that personal Map will result in Mind Chaos and Reorganization, that’s how this change generally works. It matches perfectly with Ilya Romanovitsj Prigogine/s Chaos & Reorganization Theory. Like Einstein, Prigogine also was rewarded with the Nobel Prize.

As I have experienced for a couple of years, we are all so brilliantly accommodated by society to Believe in the current monetary system, that freegold seems mindboggling and thus real psychological chaos and reorganization in required to comprehend what this freegold is all about. Maybe even chaos and reorganization is needed in the $IMFS as a whole. With chaos I don’t mean what we experience nowadays, but REAL Worldwide chaos.

So now I’m "stuck" with three interesting questions (the magic 3) :lol: :
-Am I running around in circles because my Internal Map is Stuck Up ?
-Is Freegold too far away from reality or is it really close to it ?
-What chances does freegold make, to be the real $IMFS successor ? – see explanation above-

Maybe we’ll find out, maybe not. For now I’ll concentrate on Blondie/s post and will come up with replies asap. Be not surprised if my answers comply to these two posts.

Grtz. Indy..[THOUGHTS 2].. :)
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Re: @ Indiana Jones

Post by Indiana Jones » 02 Nov 2011, 23:47

Blondie wrote:Indy, thanks for the post in english. I attempted to follow the dutch threads, but once translated they are barely/not understandable, so I have given up.

Thanks also for the concise stating of your position. As in all other spheres, in order to have an objective exchange (in this case of views), we first must establish a reference point for the sake of relativity. Your post does this.

Because I like to eliminate unknowns as much as possible, I would like to firstly clarify some of the things you have said:
Indy wrote: Because it is a really beautiful concept just like the Bible I started to believe in it. Being a critical examiner I also started looking for the Freegold blueprint but there didn’t seem to be any.
Are these two statements not contradictory?
Believing something because it is a really beautiful concept seems diametrically opposed to be a critical examiner.
I’ll return to the blueprint issue in due course.

Believes have to fit in some thinking strategy and untill now they don't. [thoughts 1]. However I'm open for suggestions to put those believes in 'some' place with a little help from a friend.
Indy wrote: I read about Oil for partly Dollar and partly Gold and this seemed logical to me because the Dollar devalued couple of times in the past decades and the physical link between the Dollar en Gold was cut by Nixon (but NOT it's true link). The Arabs were simply asking for some Gold as a hedge against a devaluing dollar purchasing power. Later on the Arabs agreed with military protection instead of Gold and this also seems logical to me.
“Oil for partly Dollar and partly Gold” seems logical to me too, but not for the reason you state... what and when do you mean when you say “the Dollar devalued couple of times in the past decades”?
Also, what do you mean with regard to the “Nixon Chop” when you say “but NOT it's true link”?

Devaluation is a misconseption, sorry. I meant depreciation. Also depreciation is hard to measure because the dollar is the reference point for other world currencies and commodities are quoted in dollar also. I derive this opinion from how my American family asseses their purchasing power and Yes this is a subjective opinion.. :|

The dollar imho never severed its bond to gold because dollar gold is fixed at $ 43 troy ounce. Why should the do that if there is no bond ?

While I agree that this is technically correct, I disagree that Oil seeks gold as a hedge against a devaluing dollar because this is too narrow a view of the situation.
This goes back to the reason “Oil for partly Dollar and partly Gold“ seems logical to me: Oil are happy with dollars (or whichever is the currency de jure) for their day to day flow of value (AKA their income and expenses), capital expenditure and short term investments, speculations and general consumption. But for that part of their value which they want to store (AKA their savings/reserves) they want gold.

I'm almost certain that the Arabs store Value (their personal concept of value) in all kind of things. I stated above that they sold 'part' of their gold.

The reason they want gold is not as a hedge against a devaluing dollar in particular, but against devaluing currencies in general.

I agree on that !

But to call gold a hedge against devaluing currencies, while technically correct, is to view it from the wrong perspective. This is to imagine Oil thinks like you, but they don’t. The notion of storing value in currency seems viable to you, but for the problem of devaluation, so you want to hedge. Oil thinks your perspective naive. They have never even considered storing value in currency; the very idea, to Oil (and others of the Old World perspective), is absurd. They have always (millennia) used gold for storing value. You suggest they should use gold as a hedge against value lost in devaluing currencies? The idea of storing value in currency was always ridiculous. Old World perspective laughs at such “western thinking”.

I agree on your statement that my view is maybe from the wrong perspective, but I'm sure I've read several articles about Arabs (among other investments) also buying Treasury Bonds from different countries in the world. Especially if you buy TB with Oil Dollars or Euro/s, you store oil-value into currencies. That doesn't advocate for a clear view on what value is, does it ?

So I say you are correct in this “gold as hedge” perspective, but only on your own terms.

Agree .. :D
Indy wrote: Because the Euro was a brand new currency the Arabs asked for some Gold too and this also makes sense. Foa writes about Arabs selling some of their acquired Gold to exchange this into other stores of wealth and even this seems logical to me but this still doesn’t advocate for Freegold.
Neither of these sentences are making sense to me; can you expand them?

-I'm pretty sure that the Arabs were selling their gold via a South Africa - Swirzerland link. I can't find it right now, but I'm sure I've read that somewhere in the GoldTrail.
-What goes for the Dollar goes for the Euro ... see answer above.

Indy wrote: TRUST and ACCEPTANCE by a COMMUNITY
Critical indeed. We will come back to these later, for sure.

I've tried to explain my view on this in Indy.Thoughts 1 + 2
Indy wrote: The Euro severed its bond with Gold and therefore the ECB can value the gold holdings marked to market, unlike the Dollar.
Yes euro is not like the dollar, but this is not because “ECB can value the gold holdings MTM“, but because ECB is allowing gold to value the euro MTM. Big difference, really big. Fundamental. You are viewing this from the western trader perspective, not Old World perspective. Western trader perspective is about to go down the drain along with the system that supports it, the $IMFS.

The word 'therefore' is not in place, sorry. You can skip it. But I don't agree on 'because' also and would rather choose the word 'and'. Don't want to play wordgames, maybe I'm missing something ?
What makes you think I'm looking at the $IMFS from a trader perspective ?
I certainly don't want to look at the MS this way, because I'm sure the current MS is very fragile and nearly over the edge.

Indy wrote: The Dollar severed its link to the nation state because the US treasury ONLY can issue Treasury Bonds (the dollar simply is a TB derivative) and the individual states can’t because they can ONLY issue State Bonds and Municipal Bonds. Because Greece and Athens CAN issue Eurobonds it seems like the Drachme STILL exists in the background and the Euro practically has NOT severed its link to the nation state but only in theory.
Dollar has not severed link to nation state: USA is a nation. TBs are issued by US Treasury. Pure debt.
Is the euro a Eurobond derivative? I say no. The euro is a medium of exchange only, and its value is a derivative of the amount of gold it can purchase. This amount is free to float and is publicly market-set information available 24/7.
Bondholders should wakeup and demand bonds denominated in gold! What if the market devalues the euro in gold? What if the market devalues dollar in gold??? :lol: :lol: :lol:

I say Yes. If the Euro was not, why all the fuzzy about saving the club MED countries because the Euro is cliffhanging right now. If the Euro was really a medium of exchange only, Greece can default easily without damaging the Euro. If bondholders should wake up and demand gold to sleep peacefully, why don't they. Or do you think French banks are stupid ?
Indy wrote: According to the Freegold theory physical Gold has to price currencies. That means that TRUST and ACCEPTANCE in currencies and GOLD are a MUST in a Freegold system. But how can there be Trust if every single country has to assume that their neighbors are telling the truth about their gold holdings ?
State gold holdings have nothing to do with the value of a currency in Freegold.

Maybe I chose the wrong perspective here and you're right. I'll think this over.

Any currency is valued only by how much gold it is exchangeable for. CB gold reserves come into play only when a CB buys physical to weaken their currency, or sells gold in order to strengthen it. In both cases the size of the gold reserves (if any) not involved in the transaction are completely irrelevant.

Don't agree on this. Please enlighten your view on international trade because currency demand and supply really quote currencies. Unless you think International Trade will have a golden reference point which make currencies nothing more but 'scrips' (the kind of scrip that Lietaer advocates). Because of a conflict with our Internal Map 'scrip' will also require a WorldWide change of mind.[indy.thoughts]

The important thing in any monetary system is neither currency nor gold, but value. Any monetary system exists only to enable the equitable flow of value between the system’s users. Correctly used, currency and gold are but tools to assist users in objectifying and regulating this flow so as to ensure exchanges of value made inside this system are mutually beneficial.

Sorry, but Value is part of our Internal Map of Reality and agreeing on gold as an International Trade Value (I suppose that this is what you meant) requires reshape of internal Maps Worldwide. [Indy. thoughts 1].

You state 'correctly used'.
As long as human mankind exists Value has been a concept that was vulnerable to corruption.

Indy wrote: In what market place physical Gold trades and who will supervice hounest trades
.

This requires a market maker/s to provide physical exchange facilities. As with any similar requirement for such services, the market always supplies facilities spontaneously where there is a commission in the offing doesn’t it? Supply and demand. An exchange not acting in accord with the needs of its customers would be shunned for one that is. Supply and demand.

I doubt.
Indy wrote: Governments are time and again forced to control their budgets but they never managed to do so according to history. That same governments control their somehow unidentified Gold stocks in a freegold system. So how can a Gold system ever be free when government still is involved ?
Governments cede control to the market under Freegold, and the market rewards or punishes via the movement of gold and thus the movement of value into and out of a currency. For example, as the exchange rate of your currency drops in gold (due to your zone’s net consumption/BOP deficits) so it drops in buying power, meaning less consumption is possible in your zone. So your production becomes cheaper to those in other zones, slowly increasing your exports while diminishing your imports and moving your zone from being a net consumer to a net producer, at which time your zone starts to experience an inflow of gold as your strengthening currency has value removed from it and stored in gold by savers.

So governments cede to exist, because that is what will happen in my opinion when they're out of control.

"But governments won't want to cede control!"... will they have a choice? The current system is at its end, and there is nothing that can be done to save it. Govt control and power stems from this system and the "easy money" it supplies to buy votes. The critical point is that you can legislate what people must use as a medium of exchange, but you cannot legislate what they use as a store of value. If the system becomes free somewhere (from such control) the currency used in that zone where no coercion is used will become more valuable everywhere than those that use coercion to find usage demand.

I'm not shure about this government cede control stuff. However I'm sure the current $IMFS is in the dangerzone and has little chance to escape from (partly) default or some kind of devaluation against all kinds of real value including gold.

Govt cannot impede the flow of value... it will simply flow through another instrument that govt do not control. The only way control is maintained even now is through conditioning... look at where gold flows today: into India, China and the East, into the hands of POOR PEOPLE who see the flow of value with Old World perspective!
Govt can only impede your judgement with their "Credibility Inflation"!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

'We the People want freegold" is close to whe the people wan't what ? [ indy. thoughts]
Indy wrote: Last but not least we probably have an international trade currency problem.
No problem. All traders trade in whichever currency/s are most convenient as objective relative valuation has been supplied in real time to all market participants via the gold/currency exchange rate. Finding the value of one currency to another involves only simple triangulation with the gold price in each.

See my remarks about World trade above.

Any currency is worth only as much gold as the market is willing to exchange for it. TRUST and ACCEPTANCE by a COMMUNITY of the currency they use stems directly from the objective valuation gold gives that currency. Gold becomes the reference point, supplying relativity, and from this grows trust and so into acceptance, not from threat of force (legislation/fiat) but free choice.

see indy. thoughts 1 + 2
Indy wrote: fofoa is really an expert in interpreting the freegold concept quoting today/s events and I respect the man ! However I’m still missing the blueprint
The “blueprint” is quite clear to me, and has been communicated very precisely (if very voluminously) by FOFOA via his blog. I suggest the problem is exactly as Another stated right from the start: the western trader mindset. Your post has exhibited it quite clearly. The Old World perspective is the one from which the “blueprint” is understandable. The construction blue print of a building is better understood by the builder than the building’s occupants.

Why you are so sure that the East already agrees on the Freegold concept. I can't find any evidence.
re: blue marked quotes
re: Indy.THOUGHTS 1 + 2
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Re: International balance of trade

Post by Blondie » 03 Nov 2011, 11:43

Paul wrote:
it is freegold stating value should be fixed TO gold(as a proxy) where my problem is.
Freegold is not stating anything. Freegold is not some regime to be adopted by governments and monetary authorities, it is simply a term distinguishing the state of the market in which gold is trading free of encumbrance. Everything described by myself and others when referencing Freegold is a description of how things would be logically expected to function in this state.

No one is saying that Freegold will be a proxy for value by decree, formal agreement or similar, but that it will do this by default.
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Re: International balance of trade

Post by Paul » 03 Nov 2011, 12:51

I understand and disagree

This is where I leave the boat; it is just (almost religious) assumption.
It is not making sense at all, not in my book anyway ...
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Re: International balance of trade

Post by Indiana Jones » 03 Nov 2011, 14:30

Blondie wrote:
Paul wrote:
it is freegold stating value should be fixed TO gold(as a proxy) where my problem is.
Freegold is not stating anything. Freegold is not some regime to be adopted by governments and monetary authorities, it is simply a term distinguishing the state of the market in which gold is trading free of encumbrance. Everything described by myself and others when referencing Freegold is a description of how things would be logically expected to function in this state.

No one is saying that Freegold will be a proxy for value by decree, formal agreement or similar, but that it will do this by default.
Maybe not from the right angle, but still my view on this.

The ECB has juridical gold ownership but the European countries in fact are the goldholders. When everything is quiet, everything is O.K. but what? if the shit hit's the fan. I doubt if the local central banks are so happy to hand over their so called ECB gold when their countries are kicked out of the Euro. Maybe after decennia juridical procedures. In the mean time the Euro has to survive with the promises of the other Eurostates that are still involved and they have to live with a nearly default of their banks and pensionfunds caused by the defaulting states. That local banks and pensionfunds seemingly have a possibility to call those clubMED bonds for gold, but the truth is they'd rather default on these bonds. So is there really a possibility to call these bonds for gold or is it actually nothing but a thought.

As I said before, the Euro is NOT free from the nation states. If this had been the case, there would be troubled banks and pensionfunds to be saved by the separate Eurocountries, but no Greek state to be saved by the Eurocommunity as a whole.

Now what about central bank gold. The local European ministries of finance (local governments) are in charge of local central banks. Local central banks are the goldholders and owe juridically some gold to the ECB. Is European gold really free from government ...NO
American gold is owned by the ministry of finance. Although many think the FED owns the gold this is not true. Is the American gold free from government ....NO


Governments have always caused encumbrances and have always been manipulating everything. As long governments (indirecty) are in charge of gold, they will manipulate gold for whatever reason.

So how can gold ever trade free of encumbrance as long as governments are in charge of their goldholdings ?
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Re: International balance of trade

Post by Blondie » 07 Nov 2011, 10:26

Indy wrote: Believes have to fit in some thinking strategy
IMO, the beliefs shape the thinking strategy.
Indy wrote: Arabs (among other investments) also buying Treasury Bonds from different countries in the world. Especially if you buy TB with Oil Dollars or Euro/s, you store oil-value into currencies. That doesn't advocate for a clear view on what value is, does it ?
You are assuming here that TBs are purchased only as store of value, but there are other reasons for which they may be bought. Whatever the reason/s, doubtless the buyer found value in the purchase. The purchase served a purpose (had a use) for the buyer, and this purpose is the value. That is the clear view on value: it is the utility one finds in something.
Indy wrote: If bondholders should wake up and demand gold to sleep peacefully, why don't they.
Because the bonds they already hold are not denominated in gold. I’m saying they should have thought of this before they bought them. Too late now.
Indy wrote: Please enlighten your view on international trade because currency demand and supply really quote currencies.
I don’t understand the phrase “really quote currencies”, and as a consequence this entire statement is unclear.
Indy wrote: Unless you think International Trade will have a golden reference point which make currencies nothing more but 'scrips'
I do.
Indy wrote: Sorry, but Value is part of our Internal Map of Reality
Value is the utility one finds in something, the usefulness it has for one, at that point in time. This is independent of any “internal map of reality”. This is one directly engaging with reality, a practical rather than a philosophical exercise.
Indy wrote: As long as human mankind exists Value has been a concept that was vulnerable to corruption.
How can the usefulness one finds in something be corrupted?
Indy wrote: I doubt.
You doubt the effectiveness of supply and demand in delivering that which the market wants?
Indy wrote: Why you are so sure that the East already agrees on the Freegold concept. I can't find any evidence.
The flow of physical gold into that region. I never said the East agreed on Freegold concept, I said they could see the flow of value with the Old World perspective. They buy physical gold as a store of value. They do not predominantly save currencies to store value, nor do they buy contracts for gold. They buy physical gold to hold in their own possession for this purpose. This action is in perfect alignment with Freegold, but this does not imply that they understand or have even heard of Freegold. Their actions, and the perspective from which these actions flow, make Freegold all the more likely to occur however, and they will understand it easily and find it aligns most comfortably with their perspective.
Indy wrote:
So how can gold ever trade free of encumbrance as long as governments are in charge of their goldholdings ?
With the exception of the US Treasury, almost all other national gold is owned by CBs, not governments.
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Re: International balance of trade

Post by Indiana Jones » 07 Nov 2011, 16:24

Blondie wrote:
Indy wrote: Believes have to fit in some thinking strategy
IMO, the beliefs shape the thinking strategy.


INDY:
The building blocks that shape our Internal Map of Reality are, language; memories; decisions; beliefs; values; attitudes etc. Beliefs however are the hardest to change.
Generally speaking people who want to change beliefs need a little outside help. Almost everyone who start changing believes is in some conflict with the outside world (Reality). For example this can be a conflict within themselves or a conflict in understanding generally accepted ideas. The latter change of believes is often called ‘thinking out of the box’.
When I got in touch with A/FOA’s freegold theory I immediately suspected there must be someone thinking out of the box here, because they had a different view on general accepted ideas, thus they were looking at gold through an altered Internal Map. That’s what attracted me to this freegold theory.
If you really want monetary system change, thinking out of the box on only one issue is simply not enough. You also have to involve the ones who are in charge of the system and the ones who are using the system. And that is where A/FOA’s freegold stops.

Because politics and trade are very important disciplines in the monetary system, you have to involve worldwide trade in that same freegold theory and you must study what thrives traders. You also have to study what thrives politicians and it really doesn’t matter whether they function in a communistic-, a democratic- or a dictatorship system. Unfortunately A/FOA aren’t there to elaborate their vision upon necessary changes in those very important disciplines, and I’m left behind with quotes as ‘freegold will force politicians to become frugal’ and ‘traders will simply adept the freegold system because they always were flexible enough to adept anything’.

Until now, the ones who explained A/FOA’s freegold theory, didn’t manage to convince me that politics and traders in the end will adept freegold.


Indy wrote: If bondholders should wake up and demand gold to sleep peacefully, why don't they.
Because the bonds they already hold are not denominated in gold. I’m saying they should have thought of this before they bought them. Too late now.


INDY:
Yup, too late indeed.

Indy wrote: Unless you think International Trade will have a golden reference point which make currencies nothing more but 'scrips'
I do.


INDY:
Sorry, but I don’t

Indy wrote: As long as human mankind exists Value has been a concept that was vulnerable to corruption.
How can the usefulness one finds in something be corrupted?


INDY:
Look at our current MS and you’ll find out …..(wink)

Indy wrote: Why you are so sure that the East already agrees on the Freegold concept. I can't find any evidence.
The flow of physical gold into that region. I never said the East agreed on Freegold concept, I said they could see the flow of value with the Old World perspective. They buy physical gold as a store of value. They do not predominantly save currencies to store value, nor do they buy contracts for gold. They buy physical gold to hold in their own possession for this purpose. This action is in perfect alignment with Freegold, but this does not imply that they understand or have even heard of Freegold. Their actions, and the perspective from which these actions flow, make Freegold all the more likely to occur however, and they will understand it easily and find it aligns most comfortably with their perspective.


INDY:
The Eastern way of thinking was always different from the Western way of thinking, even in money systems.
While the West somehow needed gold in their system, like gold coins or fixed gold prices the East, as far as I know, never did. They had physical gold and they had iron coins or paper money but gold NEVER had some bond with their money. They believed in money only because the emperors said so and the emperors had divine powers.
Chinese were always free to choose between gold and money. You’ll find evidence for that in rural parts of China where people still use tiny bits of gold as a supplement for Renminbi.
Now the Peoples Party encourages buying gold but what does that mean ?
I've read different quotes about that issue but none was convincing me.
Like quoted before, the Peoples Party ALSO is in need for money and their very complex party structure all over the country has to be funded. The Chinese have a huge trade surplus so that doesn’t seem a problem right now, but what if the West (their selling area/s) collapses ?
It is to be seen if the Peoples Party is happy with freegold when the trade surpluses dry up.


Indy wrote: So how can gold ever trade free of encumbrance as long as governments are in charge of their gold holdings ?
With the exception of the US Treasury, almost all other national gold is owned by CBs, not governments.


INDY:
Only in the US, CB (FED) shares are in the hands of Banks. In Europe CB’s are part of the political structure, just as Law. CB presidents and judges have to act independent but what it all boils down to when the going gets tough, is that behind the curtains politicians are in charge.
You just have to examine the current European events.
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Everything that needs to be said has already been said.
But since no one was listening, everything must be said again.

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Blondie
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Re: International balance of trade

Post by Blondie » 07 Nov 2011, 19:28

the ones who explained A/FOA’s freegold theory, didn’t manage to convince me
I can speak only for myself, but I am attempting to convince no one of anything.
That would be pointless. People are only ever "convinced" when "new" information is in harmony with their pre-existing beliefs, so in this respect there is no other party doing the convincing... they either "convince themselves" or they don't.

I was attempting to outline my perspective only, as requested.
You appear to have a comprehensive "internal map of reality" already in place and fully operational, one that has no room for Freegold.
That's fine with me.


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You don't own your stuff; your stuff owns you.
http://flowofvalue.blogspot.com/

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