International balance of trade

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Blondie
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Re: International balance of trade

Post by Blondie » 29 Oct 2011, 12:52

Paul wrote: Value is not stable. Ever. When everything moves all the time, then the value will also !
Value is in the eye of the beholder, I totally agree with you Paul.
As such it is not fixed, you are quite right.
Paul wrote: Gold can not value gold.
Indeed it cannot.
Only the beholder/s can do this, and they can and will do it anew at any and every point in time.

It cannot be pinned down. It should not be pinned down!
Paul wrote: Free floating currencies can deal with this because they are elastic.
But their quantity and therefore their quality is subject to the whims of their issuer, Paul, which you acknowledged when you said:
Paul wrote: The problems with money through history are always in the issuer.
So tell me, who issues gold? :?: :?: :?:


Actually, I think the fundamental problems with money have stemmed from the lack of an objective reference point to establish value. :idea:



Paul wrote: When we want to solve this, and take a real step forward we will have to question how we prevent the mismanagement of the money without giving up the elasticity of the system.
Indeed we will. Many already have, and the solution has been shown to be simplicity itself:

Gold is subject to no problems emanating from its issuer, because the issuer is nature. :!:
We simply transfer the required elasticity of the monetary system to the value of the gold.

Value is never fixed, as you point out. So the proxy for value should not be fixed either. This makes them relative.


Value is in the mind of man, and is variable. Gold, when utilized as the physical wealth reserve asset (monetary store of value), unencumbered and therefore undiluted by contractual claims, becomes the proxy for this variable value. This is why it must be unencumbered and access to it for store of value purposes must be unhindered. When everyone can value it, anytime, it truly becomes the proxy for human value. From this reference point the relative value of all else is ascertained, firstly by gold giving valuation to currencies (via the currency/gold exchange rates), and then by said currencies denominating everything else.

Remember, it is in utility that value resides, and using gold in this way is of the utmost utility to us all. Freed gold gives man the reference point to establish objective valuation of everything. There is a massive amount of value right there, my friend. Truly massive.
Paul wrote: This is just procedure and can be done when collective need is there.
Once again, we agree. It appears to me that the collective need is almost at the point to force the procedure.
Paul wrote: The problems with money through history are always in the issuer. Gold could NEVER do anything to prevent this.
Gold could never do anything to prevent this because gold has never been free to do so in the past, and our understanding has never previously been such that we could grasp the nature of this.
It will be the collective need, as you say, that will result in the understanding, after the procedure has been forced by this need.

Until very recently the technology has not existed to make the valuation of gold available worldwide in real time, coupled with the fact that pegging or otherwise controlling the gold/currency exchange rate has historically allowed the controller/s to misappropriate all value accorded to gold over and above their controlled rate. Gold has long been purposely undervalued to just this end. We see today the imbalances this has caused overwhelming this control. We have collective need to correct these imbalances, and allowing the value of gold to be as elastic as required is the natural counterweight.

It is indeed all relative, and it is freed gold that allows us to establish this relativity, establish a self-correcting equilibrium, and take a real step forward.

As a result, the future is so bright you will need sunglasses. :mrgreen:



We don't need to agree Paul, but it appears that for the most part we do.
You don't own your stuff; your stuff owns you.
http://flowofvalue.blogspot.com/


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Blondie
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Re: International balance of trade

Post by Blondie » 29 Oct 2011, 13:04

Rasta wrote:"why are you building a reserve"
As an attempt to protect oneself from the imbalances of the current (flawed) system would be the current reason; to defend oneself (from the perspective of "sovereigns" of all scales), one's autonomy and one's medium of exchange from the unwanted influence of one's peers.
You don't own your stuff; your stuff owns you.
http://flowofvalue.blogspot.com/

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Paul
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Re: International balance of trade

Post by Paul » 29 Oct 2011, 13:38

Blondie wrote: We don't need to agree Paul, but it appears that for the most part we do.
We are not that far apart, I agree, the difference is in the detail.
Details make for totally different outcome though ...

Actually, I think the fundamental problems with money have stemmed from the lack of an objective reference point to establish value. :idea:
There can not be an objective tangible reference point. We already agreed value is ALWAYS subjective by definition. It is in the eye of the beholder indeed.
Me thinks this is where our thoughts drift apart ...
"Taxes are a barbaric relic of the past"

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Paul
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Re: @ Paul

Post by Paul » 29 Oct 2011, 13:57

Boefke wrote:So your theory is all about reaching the perfect system.

In that case, sleep well.....we will never reach that.
Why not?
History has proven people always tend to make the same mistakes....over and over again.

We're trying to think about our next monetary system (which will not be perfect in the end, I guess), and not about a system that isn't going to be implemented anyway.

And than you talking about GI being an old record.....omg.

Don't know what it is Paul, but I don't feel comfortable with your discussions. I better leave it here, as this is never going to change....
I think it's evolution boefke, can't be stopped,
we will reach perfect system or we will eventually be unsustainable as a species.
I am not saying this is the moment we get there, although I do hope so, but I am stating we will in the end. just positive me.
"That's one small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind."
(to quote another famous Armstrong, what's in a name ?)

Feeling comfortable is feeling selfasured. Try and understand where I'm comming from. It'll help.
"Taxes are a barbaric relic of the past"

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Paul
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Re: International balance of trade

Post by Paul » 29 Oct 2011, 15:10

Blondie wrote:We simply transfer the required elasticity of the monetary system to the value of the gold.
Value is never fixed, as you point out. So the proxy for value should not be fixed either. This makes them relative.
No it does not.
Ultimately this IS the fixing of value to gold. you can not do that. it is artificial relativity at most.
"Taxes are a barbaric relic of the past"

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Indiana Jones
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Re: @ Paul

Post by Indiana Jones » 29 Oct 2011, 16:29

Paul wrote:I think it's evolution boefke, can't be stopped,
we will reach perfect system or we will eventually be unsustainable as a species.I am not saying this is the moment we get there, although I do hope so, but I am stating we will in the end. just positive me.
"That's one small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind."
(to quote another famous Armstrong, what's in a name ?)

Feeling comfortable is feeling selfasured. Try and understand where I'm comming from. It'll help.
Imbalance is human nature and everything that surrounds us. Therefore there will NEVER be a perfect system because perfect balance will destroy evolution. Maybe hard to understand but TRUE.

I believe money is just another commodity as is gold.
Gold however can function as a store of value but money never was SoV, so since short time I don't understand anymore why gold has to value money anyway.

I guess because government want us to believe that money is a store of value they treasure gold in their Central Bank vaults, or they want us to believe that money is a safe heaven. But as long as government manages Gold it is a government tool and wil NOT be free.

In my opinion gold should actually be free from government so I can buy it as a hedge against local money (government distrust).
On the other hand IF gold finally recaptures it’s absolute freedom, this means that central banks will sell their gold supplies because there isn’t any use for it anymore and that will reduce the price of gold for maybe decades.

Anyhow since short time I don’t believe anymore in central bank gold that will price local money. Not at a fix price nor at a free price. Only non governmental gold can be free.

Greetz Indy
Everything that needs to be said has already been said.
But since no one was listening, everything must be said again.

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Boefke
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Re: @ Paul

Post by Boefke » 29 Oct 2011, 16:51

Indiana Jones wrote:
Paul wrote:I think it's evolution boefke, can't be stopped,
we will reach perfect system or we will eventually be unsustainable as a species.I am not saying this is the moment we get there, although I do hope so, but I am stating we will in the end. just positive me.
"That's one small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind."
(to quote another famous Armstrong, what's in a name ?)

Feeling comfortable is feeling selfasured. Try and understand where I'm comming from. It'll help.
Imbalance is human nature and everything that surrounds us. Therefore there will NEVER be a perfect system because perfect balance will destroy evolution. Maybe hard to understand but TRUE.

I believe money is just another commodity as is gold.
Gold however can function as a store of value but money never was SoV, so since short time I don't understand anymore why gold has to value money anyway.

I guess because government want us to believe that money is a store of value they treasure gold in their Central Bank vaults, or they want us to believe that money is a safe heaven. But as long as government manages Gold it is a government tool and wil NOT be free.

In my opinion gold should actually be free from government so I can buy it as a hedge against local money (government distrust).
On the other hand IF gold finally recaptures it’s absolute freedom, this means that central banks will sell their gold supplies because there isn’t any use for it anymore and that will reduce the price of gold for maybe decades.

Anyhow since short time I don’t believe anymore in central bank gold that will price local money. Not at a fix price nor at a free price. Only non governmental gold can be free.

Greetz Indy
Huh!? So when something is revalued to a price, multiple times of the price today there isn't any use for it to hold? Please, Indy.....know you for a while, what am i missing here? (no offence) ;)

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Indiana Jones
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Re: @ Paul

Post by Indiana Jones » 29 Oct 2011, 17:01

Boefke wrote:
Indiana Jones wrote:
Paul wrote:I think it's evolution boefke, can't be stopped,
we will reach perfect system or we will eventually be unsustainable as a species.I am not saying this is the moment we get there, although I do hope so, but I am stating we will in the end. just positive me.
"That's one small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind."
(to quote another famous Armstrong, what's in a name ?)

Feeling comfortable is feeling selfasured. Try and understand where I'm comming from. It'll help.
Imbalance is human nature and everything that surrounds us. Therefore there will NEVER be a perfect system because perfect balance will destroy evolution. Maybe hard to understand but TRUE.

I believe money is just another commodity as is gold.
Gold however can function as a store of value but money never was SoV, so since short time I don't understand anymore why gold has to value money anyway.

I guess because government want us to believe that money is a store of value they treasure gold in their Central Bank vaults, or they want us to believe that money is a safe heaven. But as long as government manages Gold it is a government tool and wil NOT be free.

In my opinion gold should actually be free from government so I can buy it as a hedge against local money (government distrust).
On the other hand IF gold finally recaptures it’s absolute freedom, this means that central banks will sell their gold supplies because there isn’t any use for it anymore and that will reduce the price of gold for maybe decades.

Anyhow since short time I don’t believe anymore in central bank gold that will price local money. Not at a fix price nor at a free price. Only non governmental gold can be free.

Greetz Indy
Huh!? So when something is revalued to a price, multiple times of the price today there isn't any use for it to hold? Please, Indy.....know you for a while, what am i missing here? (no offence) ;)
That'll be a huge profit for central banks won't it ?
Guess they won't sell it all at once because that'll ruin the pricequote, maybe they will sell it bit by bit.

Imagine you are a landlord and you're absolutely sure the rent is always paid no matter what. Than you discover a nice precious painting on the original wall paper that has no other function than just for the eye. Why should'nt you sell it ?
Everything that needs to be said has already been said.
But since no one was listening, everything must be said again.

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Boefke
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@ Indy

Post by Boefke » 29 Oct 2011, 17:17

A profit? How do you mean a profit? Measured in what?

They have now 600 ton of gold (Netherlands) and after the revaluation still......profit? It is a great, huge devaluation of the currency what's going to happen. Value's will be shuffled. So when the currency is depreciating that much (all paper will burn) you think CB's are going to sell their gold for that falling stone?
Absolutely not (I state this with the most certainty!)

You're looking through the digit-glasses. From the system we now have....

And as gold has no use to hold, why holding it today? As your (and Paul) statements are true about gold, why is it still on central banks' balances? They could sell it with a great profit (x6 in Euro since 2000).......but haven't done. Are they stupid? Now they more than we do? Plain and simple, it doesn't matter what they think.....as we as shrimps simply can only follow.

And yes, I think they will eventually sell some...but I think it will be to keep the flow going. Because as gold needs to be The asset, it needs to float.

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Indiana Jones
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Re: @ Indy

Post by Indiana Jones » 29 Oct 2011, 17:51

Boefke wrote:A profit? How do you mean a profit? Measured in what?

They have now 600 ton of gold (Netherlands) and after the revaluation still......profit? It is a great, huge devaluation of the currency what's going to happen. Value's will be shuffled. So when the currency is depreciating that much (all paper will burn) you think CB's are going to sell their gold for that falling stone?
Absolutely not (I state this with the most certainty!)

You're looking through the digit-glasses. From the system we now have....

And as gold has no use to hold, why holding it today? As your (and Paul) statements are true about gold, why is it still on central banks' balances? They could sell it with a great profit (x6 in Euro since 2000).......but haven't done. Are they stupid? Now they more than we do? Plain and simple, it doesn't matter what they think.....as we as shrimps simply can only follow.

And yes, I think they will eventually sell some...but I think it will be to keep the flow going. Because as gold needs to be The asset, it needs to float.
Trust in money !

Holding Gold in Central Bank vaults today has a purpose like I stated before:
I guess because government want us to believe that money is a store of value they treasure gold in their Central Bank vaults, or they want us to believe that money is a safe heaven. But as long as government manages Gold it is a government tool and wil NOT be free.

I never red a true definition of freegold, maybe because there never wasn't in history. During the Roman empire the value of a dinare was a percentage in gold and a percentage in government trust (trust in the issuer of money). In times there was too much govenment spending the simply reduced the amount of gold in the dinare and as a result the trust factor in the dinare rose. Funny but true.
Nowadays we have a tiny little bit of goldvalue in the euro and a huge part of government trust. But still governments manage the price of gold through crimex and lbma, because gold is in competition with government trust.

Government actually wants to get rid of the gold issue because they want you to trust them and not the gold.
ONLY when you break the bond between gold and government there will be a really free goldprice.
Everything that needs to be said has already been said.
But since no one was listening, everything must be said again.

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